Another nice feature option?

[Carlos Correia]

Hello Again...

Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...). Another feature i always liked to see,
was airplanes that land on water and docks (floatplanes). Now
that i mencioned it, airports with 2 runways coul be very cool too,
one for incoming traffic and other for outgoing traffic...

Come on, keep posting, don't let this NG dies! TTDX forever!

Keep up all of you!

Carlos Correia
Lisbon, Portugal

[Tony Polson]

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

[Afoklala]

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

But not in TTD. And that's what we're talking about here.

[Tony Polson]

Post by Afoklala

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

But not in TTD. And that's what we're talking about here.

True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer - and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are
(1) who would do it?
and
(2) would there be enough of a market for it?

I would happily spend my $$ on an updated and improved version of TTD.

[Hyronymus]

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Afoklala

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

But not in TTD. And that's what we're talking about here.

True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer - and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are
(1) who would do it?
and
(2) would there be enough of a market for it?
I would happily spend my $$ on an updated and improved version of TTD.

I think with 'being in RCT' afoklala means it's not coded into the TTD
code. If you're familiar with stories about how patches are added to the
game you might also know how many limitations TTD has in its code. So I
don't think it's even possible to add rotating maps to TTD.

[Tony Polson]

Post by Hyronymus
I think with 'being in RCT' afoklala means it's not coded into the TTD
code. If you're familiar with stories about how patches are added to the
game you might also know how many limitations TTD has in its code. So I
don't think it's even possible to add rotating maps to TTD.

Anything is *possible*, even if it means rewriting much of the code.

The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

[Hyronymus]

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Hyronymus
I think with 'being in RCT' afoklala means it's not coded into the TTD
code. If you're familiar with stories about how patches are added to the
game you might also know how many limitations TTD has in its code. So I
don't think it's even possible to add rotating maps to TTD.

Anything is *possible*, even if it means rewriting much of the code.
The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

Why does it have to cost money all of a sudden btw? Patchman never
charged money for any of his patches, no matter how much they improved
gameplay.

[Tony Polson]

Post by Hyronymus

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Hyronymus
I think with 'being in RCT' afoklala means it's not coded into the TTD
code. If you're familiar with stories about how patches are added to the
game you might also know how many limitations TTD has in its code. So I
don't think it's even possible to add rotating maps to TTD.

Anything is *possible*, even if it means rewriting much of the code.
The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

Why does it have to cost money all of a sudden btw? Patchman never
charged money for any of his patches, no matter how much they improved
gameplay.

Because, if the code needs to be changed, rather than just skirting
round it with a patch, it is a significant amount of work.

However, if it can be done without changing the code - for example by
means of a patch - I would be very happy indeed!

;-)

[Afoklala]

Post by Hyronymus

Post by Tony Polson
The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

Why does it have to cost money all of a sudden btw? Patchman never
charged money for any of his patches, no matter how much they improved
gameplay.

Who's 'Patchman'? TTDpatch is made by a team presided by Josef. Do you guys
even _know_ about TTDpatch? Have a look at www.ttdpatch.net, and _then_ you
can come back and talk about 'improving' a great game...

[Hyronymus]

Post by Afoklala

Post by Hyronymus

Post by Tony Polson
The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

Why does it have to cost money all of a sudden btw? Patchman never
charged money for any of his patches, no matter how much they improved
gameplay.

Who's 'Patchman'? TTDpatch is made by a team presided by Josef. Do you guys
even _know_ about TTDpatch? Have a look at www.ttdpatch.net, and _then_ you
can come back and talk about 'improving' a great game...

This is getting funny. Who accuses who of ignorance. If you've ever been
to www.tt-forums.net you SHOULD know that Patchman is the username Josef
Drexler uses on those forums. Also, Josef started on the patch alone,
it's only since a few years that people joined his efforts in patching TTD.

My advice: don't shout if you're clueless.

Hyronymus

[Afoklala]

Post by Hyronymus
This is getting funny. Who accuses who of ignorance. If you've ever been
to www.tt-forums.net you SHOULD know that Patchman is the username Josef
Drexler uses on those forums. Also, Josef started on the patch alone,
it's only since a few years that people joined his efforts in patching TTD.
My advice: don't shout if you're clueless.
Hyronymus

As others have indicated: there are good reasons not to read the forums but
to stick to this newsgroup. There is no reason why I should know what Josef
calls himself outside the framework that we're in right now. For all I
know, he has a totally different secret life somewhere where he calls him
self Big Bad Bull or whatever. I don't care. Nor SHOULD I know.
In this ng he's always called himself Josef and that's the name people
should use here.
Of course I know Josef started the patch alone, but that's not the current
situation.

[Hyronymus]

Post by Afoklala

Post by Hyronymus
This is getting funny. Who accuses who of ignorance. If you've ever been
to www.tt-forums.net you SHOULD know that Patchman is the username Josef
Drexler uses on those forums. Also, Josef started on the patch alone,
it's only since a few years that people joined his efforts in patching TTD.
My advice: don't shout if you're clueless.
Hyronymus

As others have indicated: there are good reasons not to read the forums but
to stick to this newsgroup. There is no reason why I should know what Josef
calls himself outside the framework that we're in right now. For all I
know, he has a totally different secret life somewhere where he calls him
self Big Bad Bull or whatever. I don't care. Nor SHOULD I know.
In this ng he's always called himself Josef and that's the name people
should use here.
Of course I know Josef started the patch alone, but that's not the current
situation.

No apologies for falling out against me? And sorry for me being unaware
of the newsgroup rules, can some send me the charter of this newsgroup?

PS: lighten up a bit and feel the power of sarcasm & friends

[Michael Blunck]

No apologies for falling out against me? [...]

<ermh> You could fight the discussion in dutch if you want to.

Popcorn! Peanuts! Beer! :)

regards
Michael

[Afoklala]

Post by Michael Blunck

No apologies for falling out against me? [...]

<ermh> You could fight the discussion in dutch if you want to.
Popcorn! Peanuts! Beer! :)

Popcorn! Pinda's! Bier!

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.

[Carlos Correia]

Post by Afoklala

Post by Michael Blunck

No apologies for falling out against me? [...]

<ermh> You could fight the discussion in dutch if you want to.

Now: in Japanese, Greek and Portuguese.

Ok... I'll tell you in Portuguese.

Post by Afoklala

Post by Michael Blunck
Popcorn! Peanuts! Beer! :)

Popcorn! Pinda's! Bier!

Pipocas! Amendoins! Cerveja! ;)

"Herr Ober, zum dunkles bier bitte mit lupinen"

ROTFL!

--
C.C.
aka
Ty_Coon (President of Vice)

[Stevie D]

Post by Tony Polson
Anything is *possible*, even if it means rewriting much of the code.
The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

One issue is that most buildings only have two visible sides. And
while it would look a bit odd if most houses were the same on opposite
sides, it wouldn't be a problem. But for airports, it _would_ make a
different to the pattern of air traffic. It might also make a
difference to the catchment area around some industries.

[Boudewijn Dijkstra]

Post by Stevie D

Post by Tony Polson
Anything is *possible*, even if it means rewriting much of the code.
The issue here is whether it is *practicable*, and whether enough
people would buy the revised game to make the cost and effort
worthwhile ... I suspect not. I would buy it, but I suspect there are
not enough TTD users who are willing to pay to make it worth doing.

One issue is that most buildings only have two visible sides. And
while it would look a bit odd if most houses were the same on opposite
sides, it wouldn't be a problem. But for airports, it _would_ make a
different to the pattern of air traffic. It might also make a
difference to the catchment area around some industries.

No it wouldn't, if implemented The Right Way. You don't want to change the
coordinates and directions of every object, you would 'just' interchange some
sprites and change the location on which they get drawn on the screen.

[Marcin Grzegorczyk]

Post by Stevie D
One issue is that most buildings only have two visible sides. And
while it would look a bit odd if most houses were the same on opposite
sides, it wouldn't be a problem.

Just for the record, that's how SimCity 2000 does it. However, SC2000
does not have irregularly-shaped features like TT's industries.

Post by Stevie D
But for airports, it _would_ make a
different to the pattern of air traffic.

Yes, airports would be most problematic. The ground parts could be
handled by swapping sprites and drawing some of them mirrored
horizontally and/or vertically (vertical mirror is actually easier to
implement than horizontal), but for some features this would not give
proper results. At any rate, the back of the aircraft hangar is
supposed to be solid wall, but there are no sprites to show that.

Post by Stevie D
It might also make a
difference to the catchment area around some industries.

No, each tile would have to preserve its properties even if drawn with a
different sprite. I don't think it would be a big problem, though.

[Aquila]

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Afoklala

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

But not in TTD. And that's what we're talking about here.

True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer - and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are
(1) who would do it?
and
(2) would there be enough of a market for it?
I would happily spend my $$ on an updated and improved version of TTD.

There already is. It's called Locomotion!

[Tony Polson]

Post by Aquila

Post by Tony Polson
True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer - and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are
(1) who would do it?
and
(2) would there be enough of a market for it?
I would happily spend my $$ on an updated and improved version of TTD.

There already is. It's called Locomotion!

I have Locomotion but I wouldn't describe it as "improved".
I don't enjoy playing it ... it is just too slow, and nowhere near as
absorbing as TTD. A big disappointment, in my opinion.

[Aquila]

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Aquila

Post by Tony Polson
True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer - and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are
(1) who would do it?
and
(2) would there be enough of a market for it?
I would happily spend my $$ on an updated and improved version of TTD.

There already is. It's called Locomotion!

I have Locomotion but I wouldn't describe it as "improved".
I don't enjoy playing it ... it is just too slow, and nowhere near as
absorbing as TTD. A big disappointment, in my opinion.

If you say so. I don't, and I played TTD for years.

[Klaatu]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:08:18 GMT, Aquila posted to

Post by Aquila

Post by Tony Polson
I would happily spend my $$ on an updated and improved version of TTD.

There already is. It's called Locomotion!

He said "improved". That leaves out Locomotion.

OTOH, it could be that www.openttd.org is what he's after.

[Afoklala]

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Afoklala

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

But not in TTD. And that's what we're talking about here.

True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer -

No it isn't. RCT is about rollercoasters, and TTD is about transportation.

Post by Tony Polson
and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are

Chris Sawyer has stated on many occasions that TTD (or any other game of
is) was not to be changed. "If you don't like it, don't buy it" or words to
that effect. In fact, RCT has a feature that tries to determine whether
patches have been applied to savegames you try to load into it, and if it
finds one, it refuses all further activity. Not only with the said
savegame, the whole game stops functioning.

Post by Tony Polson
(1) who would do it?

There's a whole team of enthusiasts improving TTD on an almost daily basis.
If what you're talking about is feasible, pretty soon they'll have done it.
Visit www.ttdpatch.net.

[Hyronymus]

Post by Afoklala

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Afoklala

Post by Tony Polson

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think). The game has a N-S / W-E,
being the lower right corner the SE. Is it possible to
introduce any option that makes the map rotate, alowing
the view of the map for the 4 corners? I believe it is (even if
it gives a lot of work...).

This feature is available in Roller Coaster Tycoon and in Locomotion.

But not in TTD. And that's what we're talking about here.

True. But Roller Coaster Tycoon was a development of TTD from the
same author - Chris Sawyer -

No it isn't. RCT is about rollercoasters, and TTD is about transportation.

Post by Tony Polson
and Locomotion is a further development
of them both. I am sure it would not be beyond the wit of man to add
the rotation feature to TTD - the only questions are

Chris Sawyer has stated on many occasions that TTD (or any other game of
is) was not to be changed. "If you don't like it, don't buy it" or words to
that effect. In fact, RCT has a feature that tries to determine whether
patches have been applied to savegames you try to load into it, and if it
finds one, it refuses all further activity. Not only with the said
savegame, the whole game stops functioning.

Post by Tony Polson
(1) who would do it?

There's a whole team of enthusiasts improving TTD on an almost daily basis.
If what you're talking about is feasible, pretty soon they'll have done it.
Visit www.ttdpatch.net.

I don't know, there are many suggestions that are by far easier to
realise and even then the most common answer you get is 'it takes too
much time'. I don't mean to argue if it really does take too much time,
all I want to say is that this won't be realised pretty soon. I think
it's comparable to expanding airports.

BTW: www.tt-forums.net is a much more active place where alot more
discussion about TTD and TTDpatch is taking place then on this newsgroup
or www.ttdpatch.net

Hyronymus

[Marcin Grzegorczyk]

Post by Hyronymus
BTW: www.tt-forums.net is a much more active place where alot more
discussion about TTD and TTDpatch is taking place then on this newsgroup
or www.ttdpatch.net

Yes, but the average quality of a discussion IMVHO is lower there. ;-)

In any case, since I still cannot access the Net from home, using a web
forum like www.tt-forums.net regularly is out of question to me. <rant>
And I generally dislike web forums: they tend to be overloaded with
graphics, they usually lack proper message threading (tt-forums.net
certainly does), there's no practical way to read them offline. </rant>
I'm going to stick to this newsgroup and the mailing lists, and I
suspect I'm not alone in that.

[Michael Blunck]

Marcin Grzegorczyk wrote:

[...]

Post by Marcin Grzegorczyk
<rant>
And I generally dislike web forums: they tend to be overloaded with
graphics, they usually lack proper message threading (tt-forums.net
certainly does), there's no practical way to read them offline. </rant>

[x] seconded.

Post by Marcin Grzegorczyk
I'm going to stick to this newsgroup and the mailing lists, and I
suspect I'm not alone in that.

O/c not. :)

regards
Michael

[Hyronymus]

Post by Michael Blunck
[...]

Post by Marcin Grzegorczyk
<rant>
And I generally dislike web forums: they tend to be overloaded with
graphics, they usually lack proper message threading (tt-forums.net
certainly does), there's no practical way to read them offline. </rant>

[x] seconded.

Post by Marcin Grzegorczyk
I'm going to stick to this newsgroup and the mailing lists, and I
suspect I'm not alone in that.

O/c not. :)
regards
Michael

I did by no means intend to force the 2 of you to leave the newsgroup.
Giving proper subjects is definetly a problem, as is patience and
courtesy. But the forums have a larger audience and I think that's why
they exist ;).

Hyronymus

[Chris]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:29:35 +0200, Michael Blunck

Post by Michael Blunck

Post by Marcin Grzegorczyk
And I generally dislike web forums: they tend to be overloaded with
graphics, they usually lack proper message threading (tt-forums.net
certainly does), there's no practical way to read them offline. </rant>

[x] seconded.

Thirded, or perhaps double seconded... but I've been and looked at
the forums, and they appear slow, overburdened with graphics, avatars
etc., with a whole array of different forums for different things,
except that noone sticks to the forums that they should be posting in.
They're difficult to archive or search efficiently... there's no
pratical way to read them offline, and of course, they're not allowed
at work - so when you've got that spare ten minutes to check what's
happening in the world..... you find that you can't!

[Michael Blunck]

And I generally dislike web forums: [...]

[...] and of course, they're not allowed
at work - so when you've got that spare ten minutes to check what's
happening in the world..... you find that you can't!

Even if you´re not at work: "Sorry, but this board is currently
unavailable. Please try again later." :)

regards
Michael

[Owen Rudge]

Post by Marcin Grzegorczyk
In any case, since I still cannot access the Net from home, using a web
forum like www.tt-forums.net regularly is out of question to me. <rant>
And I generally dislike web forums: they tend to be overloaded with
graphics, they usually lack proper message threading (tt-forums.net
certainly does), there's no practical way to read them offline. </rant>
I'm going to stick to this newsgroup and the mailing lists, and I suspect
I'm not alone in that.

A while ago I did actually experiment with an NNTP interface with the
forums... unfortunately, due to the lack of proper threading on the forums
themselves, it didn't work too well, but it did work to a point...

[Marcin Grzegorczyk]

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think).

It would certainly be possible to do the way it's done in SimCity 2000 -
that is, by changing the screen positions and order of sprites, and
drawing them horizontally mirrored for 90- and 270-degree rotations. Of
course, the view rotation would then feel as unnatural as it does in
SC2000, but it could still be useful.

I actually have thought of that feature for some time, but with the very
limited time I've recently had to work on TTDPatch and related stuff, I
haven't yet gone farther than actually drawing the sprites mirrored.
That's just the beginning; a whole lot of other things (sprite sorting,
landscape<->pixel coordinate mapping, ...) will need updating before
this feature could really work. Also, multi-tile buildings (esp.
industry buildings) would probably require special support.

[Christoph 'Mehdorn' Weber]

Hallo!

Post by Carlos Correia
Another feature i always asked myself why C. Sawyer
did not introduce was a kind of "map rotation", like
"Sim City 2000" (i think).

I don't think I would need this feature. But sometimes in the "trans-
parent building" mode, I'm annoyed by those overlapping sky scraper
buildings in larger cities -- because you can't see anything more than
without that mode.

In those cases, I wish another "Sim City 2000" feature. There was a
little button to switch between normal view and schematic mode, were
buildings were represented by coloured squares. The colours told you
about the type of the building (house, industry, support) -- adapted to
"house, station types, industry types" (colours matching those of the
map window) could be great!

Post by Carlos Correia
Now that i mencioned it, airports with 2 runways coul be very cool
too, one for incoming traffic and other for outgoing traffic...

OpenTTD offers four types of airport. The heliport, the little air-
port, the large airport, some big-city airport and a huge-city airport.
The least two have multiple runways.

The big-city one has two directly beneath each other, the other one at
the N-W and at the S-W side.

Post by Carlos Correia
Come on, keep posting, don't let this NG dies! TTDX forever!

I don't think it'll die too fast.

Christoph